Thursday, August 24, 2006
FRUITS BASKET VOL. 14 TRANSLATION NOTES
On to vol. 14. As before, TP stands for Tokyopop's text, JP stands for the Japanese text, and my own translation follows. This time, subtract six from the page numbers below to get the JP page numbers.
A number of the passages below were called to my attention by umadoshi's post on the translation of this volume, which I've mentioned before. And for a couple of the translations, I used, or borrowed from, Shadow's translations as given in that post.
p. 13: The JP begins with the words "Sonna koto nai yo," or "It's not like that," which are omitted from the TP.
p. 17, panel 1: TP: "I'm not that kind."
JP: "...Ore yasashiku nai to omou n' da kedo"
"I don't think I'm kind"
p. 25, panel 1: TP: "and little merit"
JP: "utsuwa mo chiisaku"
"and little ability"
p. 43: TP's "I'll never forget" is absent from the JP.
p. 44, panels 1 and 2: TP: "Of wondering if they were in a good mood or if they still hated me. I told myself I'd wait until it passes.
JP: "Kigen wa ii darou ka. Warukattara sore ga sugiru no o matou"
"Are they in a good mood? If they're in a bad mood, I'll wait until it passes."
p. 46, panel 5: TP: "I feel like"
JP: "ki ga suru"
"I think" ("I feel like" is possible in isolation, but "I think" fits the context better.)
p. 47, panel 5: TP's "Surely she's been showing symptoms for some time now" is absent from the JP.
p. 49, panel 2: TP: "I must talk to them about what's happened."
JP: "Kimi ga ukete kita koui ni tsuite mo hanashite morawanakute wa ikenai kara"
"Because they also need to tell me about the behavior you've been subjected to"
p. 52, panel 2: TP: "...not being taken seriously."
JP: "naigashiro ni saretara"
"if we're treated with contempt" or "if we're neglected"
p. 56, panel 1: TP: "and talk about random things."
JP: "taai no nai hanashi o shite"
"and talk to me without pity" With the kanji used here, "taai" means "altruism".
p. 56, panel 5: TP: "and when I was in the hospital Haru came to see me all the time."
JP: "omimai mo Haru wa takusan kite kureta"
"and Haru frequently came to inquire after my health" or "frequently came to visit me"
p. 58, panel 5: TP: "Because I like you."
JP: "suki dakara"
"Because I love you" "Suki" can mean both "love" and "like", but "love" fits the context much better.
p. 59, panel 6: Again, "like" should be "love".
p. 60, panel 1: Ditto.
p. 61, panel 2: Ditto.
p. 62, panel 3: TP: "Why can't we be more normal?"
JP: "Doushite motto futsuu de irarenai n' darou"
"Why can't I be more normal?" The JP sentence has no explicit subject, but in context the subject is clearly "I".
p. 62, panel 3: TP: "Holding hands...having his body on mine...I started to want him. I started to get scared."
JP: "Te o tsunaide mo...karada o kasanete mo...hoshiku naru[.] Kowaku naru"
In my reply to umadoshi's post, I wrote: "I'd go with 'Even holding hands, even joining bodies' (literally 'piling up' or 'placing one thing on top of another'). The meaning, as far as I can make out, seems to be that even when she's already joined with Haru she continues to desire him more, which Tokyopop's version doesn't convey." But it appears now that I was mistaken. For one thing, I haven't found anything in any of my books to indicate that "X-ku naru" can mean "become more X". Taken in isolation, TP's translation is correct. On the other hand, in this context it doesn't make sense, since Rin already desires Haru and is already afraid of Akito. The only thing I can think of to make Rin's statement fit the context is to suppose that there's an implicit "again", so that the translation would be "I begin to desire Haru [again]. I become afraid [again]". As for the first part of the first sentence, in my big, thick, expensive Reference Grammar of Japanese (by Samuel E. Martin, it says that "-te mo" means "even if," "even though"; but "-te mo ... -te mo" means "whether ... or". But, while it doesn't say that "-te mo ... -te mo" can also mean "even though ... even though", my guess would be that this is possible. And I think that that reading works better here. Also, while "kasaneru" means "to pile up, to put one thing on top of another," the JP doesn't say who is on top of whom. So right now my best shot at a translation is "Even holding hands, even piling our bodies together, I begin to desire Haru again. I become afraid again."
p. 67, panel 4: TP: "will eat through Hatsuharu."
JP: "Hatsuharu o kuitsubusu yo"
"will eat Hatsuharu up"
p. 78, panel 6: TP: "Leave me alone!"
JP: "Atashi ni kamau na"
"Don't concern yourselves with me!"
p. 79, panel 3: TP: "Why don't you at least let them get you to the point where you can take care of your own body?"
JP: "Jibun no taichou kanri gurai dekiru you ni nattara?"
"If you became able to take charge of your own health?"
p. 79, panel 4: TP:"That's the only way you can get people to once and for all leave you alone."
JP: "Sonna ni hito ni kamawaretakunai nara naosara hissu da yo"
"If you don't want other people to be concerned about you, that's all the more essential"
p. 79, panel 4: TP: "And that way, we wouldn't have to be so bothered by you."
JP: "Bokura mo furimawasarenaide sumu shi ne"
"And we too wouldn't be abused"
p. 86, panel 1: TP: "In spite of everything"
JP: "Ima mo"
"Even now"
p. 86, panel 1: Once again (or twice again), "like" should be "love".
p. 96, panel 4: TP: "weaknesses"
JP: "yowane"
"complaints"
p. 98, panel 1: TP: "I promised myself"
JP: "kataku sou kimeteta no ni"
"although I firmly decided that" Also, I'm pretty sure that "that" ("sou") refers to the preceding text, not to the following text as TP has it.
p. 98, panel 2: TP: "that I wouldn't cry, but..."
JP: "Naku mon ka tte kimeta ita no ni"
"Although I decided 'I certainly won't cry'"
p. 100, panel 5: TP: "is a frightening way to live."
JP: "kowai desu"
"is scary"
p. 101, panels 3 and 4: TP: "She should have just given in to her and cried long ago.'
JP: "Motto sunao ni amaereba ii no ni"
"Although it would be nice if she accepted Tohru's kindness more meekly"
"Amaeru" literally means "take advantage of another's kindness" or "presume upon another's kindness," but that doesn't fit very well with "sunao ni" (meekly, gently, submissively).
p. 101, panel 5: TP: "will you always go crying to her?"
JP: "itsumademo amaeta mama de iru no ka"
"whether one continues to take advantage of another's kindness indefinitely" I know this is awkward, but in the JP the subject is ambiguous, and I think it's important to preserve this.
p. 102, panel 1: TP: "The sunrise I saw that day quietly spread its light over the land."
JP: "Sono hi mita asayake wa shizuka ni atari o terashite itta"
"The morning glow I saw that day gradually illuminated the neighborhood quietly"
p. 102, panel 2: TP: "But there was another light that lit up places the eye can't see."
JP: "Tooi tooi basho made terashite itta"
"It gradually illuminated as far as the eye could see" (Literally "up to far, far places")
p. 108, panel 3: TP: "We're looking for the same thing."
JP: "Motometa mono"
"The person we turned to for support" seems a better translation in this context.
p. 108, panel 4: TP: "Yeah, it was kinda intense."
JP: "Bikkuri bikkuri"
"I was really surprised" (or startled)
p. 109, panel 3: Again, "likes" should be "loves".
p. 110, panel 1: Ditto.
p. 110, panel 2: There's no "and gets better" in the JP.
p. 111, panel 2: TP: "Sounds like your new fling's enthusiasm knows no bounds."
JP: "Nanka...furin aite ga iyagarase shiteru mitai..."
"Somehow...it seems like your illicit lover is being spiteful..."
p. 113, panel 4: TP: "Good luck. To both of us."
JP: "Otagai kentou"
"Let's both fight hard" "Kentou" means "a good fight," "fighting bravely," or "strenuous efforts".
p. 114, panel 2: TP: "Does beauty run in the Sohma blood?"
JP: "Sohma tte bikei no chisuji?"
"Are the Sohmas descended from a beautiful woman?"
p. 121, panel 6: TP: "Are you harassing Yun-Yun?"
JP: "Yun-Yun e no iyagarase desu kaa?"
"Are you being spiteful to Yun-Yun?"
p. 127, panel 4: TP: "were raised verrrry strictly."
JP: "kaanaari Suparuta-shiki kyouiku uketa sodatta n' da yo ne"
"Were brought up under a faaiirly Spartan discipline"
p. 130, panel 5: TP: "There's no 'reset' button."
JP: "Soko ni wa 'atari' mo 'hazure' mo nai n' da"
"With parents and children there's no 'hit' or 'miss'" (or "no 'success' or 'failure').
p. 144, panel 1: TP: "I was pathetic."
JP: "itaitashikute"
"pitifully"
p. 145, panel 3: TP: "I must be"
JP "Watashi wa ... kamoshiremasen" (my ellipsis)
"Maybe I'm"
p. 152, panel 5: TP: "several times"
JP: "ikudo to naku"
"many times"
p. 164, panel 3: TP: "I can't explain it to anyone but on the other side of that door ..."
JP: "Dare ni mo misenai[.] Tobira no mukou de ..."
"Nobody can see it. (Literally, "It's not displayed to anyone.") Behind a door ..." There's no "that" in the JP, and inserting it makes it seem as if Rin somehow knows what Tohru was dreaming. Also, I had to make a decision about punctuation. If you read this as a single sentence, it would be "Behind a door that nobody can see," which to me makes less sense.
p. 165, panel 6: TP: "People can't help but be drawn to someone like her."
JP: "Sonna hito o motomezu ni wa irarenai kara"
"Because you can't help wishing for (or turning to, or searching for) such a person" "Such a person" ("sonna hito") refers to the "someone who will gently open that door" in the preceding panel, not to Tohru.
p. 168, panel 4: TP: "bake potatoes"
JP: "yakiimo tsukute"
"roast sweet potatoes"
p. 182, panel 6: TP: "Take that, Tohru Honda"
JP: "Zamaa miro, Honda Tohru"
"It serves you right, Tohru Honda"
p. 185, panel 1: Yuki is here remembering Shigure's words on p. 101, panel 5, and the note to that panel applies here.
p. 193, panel 6 and p. 194, panel 1: TP: "It's not just that. That room had another effect on me."
JP: "...Shikamo honto ni kokorobosokatta no ka mo"
"...Also, maybe I actually was depressed"
p. 194, panel 4:
TP: "I'm stupid, so if you just make something up, I won't know the difference."
"What's the point in cheating a confession?"
JP: "Ore baka dakara itte kunnakya issho wakannai yo?"
"Sore saa...tenuki to mo iwanai?"
[My translation]: "I'm stupid, so if you don't tell me I'll never understand."
"Um...couldn't you leave that out?"
p. 195, panel 3: TP: "pitiful and pathetic."
JP: "nasakenakute kakko warui"
"shameful and unseemly"
On to vol. 14. As before, TP stands for Tokyopop's text, JP stands for the Japanese text, and my own translation follows. This time, subtract six from the page numbers below to get the JP page numbers.
A number of the passages below were called to my attention by umadoshi's post on the translation of this volume, which I've mentioned before. And for a couple of the translations, I used, or borrowed from, Shadow's translations as given in that post.
p. 13: The JP begins with the words "Sonna koto nai yo," or "It's not like that," which are omitted from the TP.
p. 17, panel 1: TP: "I'm not that kind."
JP: "...Ore yasashiku nai to omou n' da kedo"
"I don't think I'm kind"
p. 25, panel 1: TP: "and little merit"
JP: "utsuwa mo chiisaku"
"and little ability"
p. 43: TP's "I'll never forget" is absent from the JP.
p. 44, panels 1 and 2: TP: "Of wondering if they were in a good mood or if they still hated me. I told myself I'd wait until it passes.
JP: "Kigen wa ii darou ka. Warukattara sore ga sugiru no o matou"
"Are they in a good mood? If they're in a bad mood, I'll wait until it passes."
p. 46, panel 5: TP: "I feel like"
JP: "ki ga suru"
"I think" ("I feel like" is possible in isolation, but "I think" fits the context better.)
p. 47, panel 5: TP's "Surely she's been showing symptoms for some time now" is absent from the JP.
p. 49, panel 2: TP: "I must talk to them about what's happened."
JP: "Kimi ga ukete kita koui ni tsuite mo hanashite morawanakute wa ikenai kara"
"Because they also need to tell me about the behavior you've been subjected to"
p. 52, panel 2: TP: "...not being taken seriously."
JP: "naigashiro ni saretara"
"if we're treated with contempt" or "if we're neglected"
p. 56, panel 1: TP: "and talk about random things."
JP: "taai no nai hanashi o shite"
"and talk to me without pity" With the kanji used here, "taai" means "altruism".
p. 56, panel 5: TP: "and when I was in the hospital Haru came to see me all the time."
JP: "omimai mo Haru wa takusan kite kureta"
"and Haru frequently came to inquire after my health" or "frequently came to visit me"
p. 58, panel 5: TP: "Because I like you."
JP: "suki dakara"
"Because I love you" "Suki" can mean both "love" and "like", but "love" fits the context much better.
p. 59, panel 6: Again, "like" should be "love".
p. 60, panel 1: Ditto.
p. 61, panel 2: Ditto.
p. 62, panel 3: TP: "Why can't we be more normal?"
JP: "Doushite motto futsuu de irarenai n' darou"
"Why can't I be more normal?" The JP sentence has no explicit subject, but in context the subject is clearly "I".
p. 62, panel 3: TP: "Holding hands...having his body on mine...I started to want him. I started to get scared."
JP: "Te o tsunaide mo...karada o kasanete mo...hoshiku naru[.] Kowaku naru"
In my reply to umadoshi's post, I wrote: "I'd go with 'Even holding hands, even joining bodies' (literally 'piling up' or 'placing one thing on top of another'). The meaning, as far as I can make out, seems to be that even when she's already joined with Haru she continues to desire him more, which Tokyopop's version doesn't convey." But it appears now that I was mistaken. For one thing, I haven't found anything in any of my books to indicate that "X-ku naru" can mean "become more X". Taken in isolation, TP's translation is correct. On the other hand, in this context it doesn't make sense, since Rin already desires Haru and is already afraid of Akito. The only thing I can think of to make Rin's statement fit the context is to suppose that there's an implicit "again", so that the translation would be "I begin to desire Haru [again]. I become afraid [again]". As for the first part of the first sentence, in my big, thick, expensive Reference Grammar of Japanese (by Samuel E. Martin, it says that "-te mo" means "even if," "even though"; but "-te mo ... -te mo" means "whether ... or". But, while it doesn't say that "-te mo ... -te mo" can also mean "even though ... even though", my guess would be that this is possible. And I think that that reading works better here. Also, while "kasaneru" means "to pile up, to put one thing on top of another," the JP doesn't say who is on top of whom. So right now my best shot at a translation is "Even holding hands, even piling our bodies together, I begin to desire Haru again. I become afraid again."
p. 67, panel 4: TP: "will eat through Hatsuharu."
JP: "Hatsuharu o kuitsubusu yo"
"will eat Hatsuharu up"
p. 78, panel 6: TP: "Leave me alone!"
JP: "Atashi ni kamau na"
"Don't concern yourselves with me!"
p. 79, panel 3: TP: "Why don't you at least let them get you to the point where you can take care of your own body?"
JP: "Jibun no taichou kanri gurai dekiru you ni nattara?"
"If you became able to take charge of your own health?"
p. 79, panel 4: TP:"That's the only way you can get people to once and for all leave you alone."
JP: "Sonna ni hito ni kamawaretakunai nara naosara hissu da yo"
"If you don't want other people to be concerned about you, that's all the more essential"
p. 79, panel 4: TP: "And that way, we wouldn't have to be so bothered by you."
JP: "Bokura mo furimawasarenaide sumu shi ne"
"And we too wouldn't be abused"
p. 86, panel 1: TP: "In spite of everything"
JP: "Ima mo"
"Even now"
p. 86, panel 1: Once again (or twice again), "like" should be "love".
p. 96, panel 4: TP: "weaknesses"
JP: "yowane"
"complaints"
p. 98, panel 1: TP: "I promised myself"
JP: "kataku sou kimeteta no ni"
"although I firmly decided that" Also, I'm pretty sure that "that" ("sou") refers to the preceding text, not to the following text as TP has it.
p. 98, panel 2: TP: "that I wouldn't cry, but..."
JP: "Naku mon ka tte kimeta ita no ni"
"Although I decided 'I certainly won't cry'"
p. 100, panel 5: TP: "is a frightening way to live."
JP: "kowai desu"
"is scary"
p. 101, panels 3 and 4: TP: "She should have just given in to her and cried long ago.'
JP: "Motto sunao ni amaereba ii no ni"
"Although it would be nice if she accepted Tohru's kindness more meekly"
"Amaeru" literally means "take advantage of another's kindness" or "presume upon another's kindness," but that doesn't fit very well with "sunao ni" (meekly, gently, submissively).
p. 101, panel 5: TP: "will you always go crying to her?"
JP: "itsumademo amaeta mama de iru no ka"
"whether one continues to take advantage of another's kindness indefinitely" I know this is awkward, but in the JP the subject is ambiguous, and I think it's important to preserve this.
p. 102, panel 1: TP: "The sunrise I saw that day quietly spread its light over the land."
JP: "Sono hi mita asayake wa shizuka ni atari o terashite itta"
"The morning glow I saw that day gradually illuminated the neighborhood quietly"
p. 102, panel 2: TP: "But there was another light that lit up places the eye can't see."
JP: "Tooi tooi basho made terashite itta"
"It gradually illuminated as far as the eye could see" (Literally "up to far, far places")
p. 108, panel 3: TP: "We're looking for the same thing."
JP: "Motometa mono"
"The person we turned to for support" seems a better translation in this context.
p. 108, panel 4: TP: "Yeah, it was kinda intense."
JP: "Bikkuri bikkuri"
"I was really surprised" (or startled)
p. 109, panel 3: Again, "likes" should be "loves".
p. 110, panel 1: Ditto.
p. 110, panel 2: There's no "and gets better" in the JP.
p. 111, panel 2: TP: "Sounds like your new fling's enthusiasm knows no bounds."
JP: "Nanka...furin aite ga iyagarase shiteru mitai..."
"Somehow...it seems like your illicit lover is being spiteful..."
p. 113, panel 4: TP: "Good luck. To both of us."
JP: "Otagai kentou"
"Let's both fight hard" "Kentou" means "a good fight," "fighting bravely," or "strenuous efforts".
p. 114, panel 2: TP: "Does beauty run in the Sohma blood?"
JP: "Sohma tte bikei no chisuji?"
"Are the Sohmas descended from a beautiful woman?"
p. 121, panel 6: TP: "Are you harassing Yun-Yun?"
JP: "Yun-Yun e no iyagarase desu kaa?"
"Are you being spiteful to Yun-Yun?"
p. 127, panel 4: TP: "were raised verrrry strictly."
JP: "kaanaari Suparuta-shiki kyouiku uketa sodatta n' da yo ne"
"Were brought up under a faaiirly Spartan discipline"
p. 130, panel 5: TP: "There's no 'reset' button."
JP: "Soko ni wa 'atari' mo 'hazure' mo nai n' da"
"With parents and children there's no 'hit' or 'miss'" (or "no 'success' or 'failure').
p. 144, panel 1: TP: "I was pathetic."
JP: "itaitashikute"
"pitifully"
p. 145, panel 3: TP: "I must be"
JP "Watashi wa ... kamoshiremasen" (my ellipsis)
"Maybe I'm"
p. 152, panel 5: TP: "several times"
JP: "ikudo to naku"
"many times"
p. 164, panel 3: TP: "I can't explain it to anyone but on the other side of that door ..."
JP: "Dare ni mo misenai[.] Tobira no mukou de ..."
"Nobody can see it. (Literally, "It's not displayed to anyone.") Behind a door ..." There's no "that" in the JP, and inserting it makes it seem as if Rin somehow knows what Tohru was dreaming. Also, I had to make a decision about punctuation. If you read this as a single sentence, it would be "Behind a door that nobody can see," which to me makes less sense.
p. 165, panel 6: TP: "People can't help but be drawn to someone like her."
JP: "Sonna hito o motomezu ni wa irarenai kara"
"Because you can't help wishing for (or turning to, or searching for) such a person" "Such a person" ("sonna hito") refers to the "someone who will gently open that door" in the preceding panel, not to Tohru.
p. 168, panel 4: TP: "bake potatoes"
JP: "yakiimo tsukute"
"roast sweet potatoes"
p. 182, panel 6: TP: "Take that, Tohru Honda"
JP: "Zamaa miro, Honda Tohru"
"It serves you right, Tohru Honda"
p. 185, panel 1: Yuki is here remembering Shigure's words on p. 101, panel 5, and the note to that panel applies here.
p. 193, panel 6 and p. 194, panel 1: TP: "It's not just that. That room had another effect on me."
JP: "...Shikamo honto ni kokorobosokatta no ka mo"
"...Also, maybe I actually was depressed"
p. 194, panel 4:
TP: "I'm stupid, so if you just make something up, I won't know the difference."
"What's the point in cheating a confession?"
JP: "Ore baka dakara itte kunnakya issho wakannai yo?"
"Sore saa...tenuki to mo iwanai?"
[My translation]: "I'm stupid, so if you don't tell me I'll never understand."
"Um...couldn't you leave that out?"
p. 195, panel 3: TP: "pitiful and pathetic."
JP: "nasakenakute kakko warui"
"shameful and unseemly"
Comments:
Thanks for letting me know this post went up! ^_^
And yes, the love/like thing is really annoying. And pointless too: "love" is the obvious translation, and I can't think of any reason not to use it. [from your comment on my journal]
It hurts my head that they went with that. Again, showing my bias (but in this volume I feel no guilt about that--it IS all about Rin ^^), but both of those scenes are so powerful--not just the confession, but Yuki going out of his way to remind Rin that she's loved, after how she treated him the last time they spoke . . . it lessens the intensity, and "like" is just such a weak word in comparison. *sighs*
I'm in the middle of moving, so all of my manga is packed up. But I think I can keep things straight without checking the page numbers against the artwork . . .
p. 52, panel 2: TP: "...not being taken seriously."
JP: "naigashiro ni saretara"
"if we're treated with contempt" or "if we're neglected"
Just in general, the weakening of such important things is upsetting. And in this case . . . the TP translation doesn't reflect at all on what was happening. >.< "Not being taken seriously" is Haru's own issue, but he obviously wasn't thinking about himself at that moment.
p. 62, panel 3: TP: "Why can't we be more normal?"
JP: "Doushite motto futsuu de irarenai n' darou"
"Why can't I be more normal?" The JP sentence has no explicit subject, but in context the subject is clearly "I".
That's interesting--*goes and looks*--Shadow also went with "we" there. (She has "Why can't we live more normally?")
p. 62, panel 3: TP: "Holding hands...having his body on mine...I started to want him. I started to get scared."
JP: "Te o tsunaide mo...karada o kasanete mo...hoshiku naru[.] Kowaku naru" [ . . . ]
So right now my best shot at a translation is "Even holding hands, even piling our bodies together, I begin to desire Haru again. I become afraid again."
. . . I'm starting to conclude that there's no way to make a direct translation of this passage read smoothly, esp. with "piling", which I don't think works in English even if it's the best literal word . . . *ponders* The tense changes depending on which translation I'm reading, which doesn't help. TP's is all past tense, while you and Shadow both went with present. How fluid is that in the original? I know Japanese tenses work differently than English ones . . . Anyway, I think I'd wind up lengthening it a bit, to try to catch some of the subtext (which is probably the line of thinking which leads to some of the things I complain about in the release in general--not a comfortable feeling). The things I read into this passage which are missing in TP's translation are that her desire for him (emotional and sexual) is too strong to be satisfied (tying in with her belief that her love is twisted and capable of destroying him).
Given all that, I might opt for something like, "Even holding hands, even with his body on mine, I just kept wanting him. And I kept being afraid." (That's fairly off the top of my head, though.) It's not a literal translation, but I think I'd want an adaptation that kept that sense of momentum and lack of control and building fear that underscores the entire scene, culminating in the confrontation with Akito. One of the things I love about this chapter is that it's chronologically choppy, but has an emotional undercurrent that's strong enough to keep an unbroken flow of feeling.
Ok, that got long. ^^ But it's one of my favorite scenes in the whole series.
p. 101, panel 5: TP: "will you always go crying to her?"
JP: "itsumademo amaeta mama de iru no ka"
"whether one continues to take advantage of another's kindness indefinitely" I know this is awkward, but in the JP the subject is ambiguous, and I think it's important to preserve this.
*nods* I agree. Rin's ability to show weakness in front of Tohru is a huge turning point for her, but fixating on it being *Tohru* loses some of the connecting threads--the way Rin compares Tohru and Haru in her head, which comes back at the end of the volume, is important for understanding how she thinks. IMO. ^^
And I think that's all I have to say at the moment. Thanks so much for this! (Is it too soon to start fidgeting for vol. 18 to come out in English? I fear so.)
And yes, the love/like thing is really annoying. And pointless too: "love" is the obvious translation, and I can't think of any reason not to use it. [from your comment on my journal]
It hurts my head that they went with that. Again, showing my bias (but in this volume I feel no guilt about that--it IS all about Rin ^^), but both of those scenes are so powerful--not just the confession, but Yuki going out of his way to remind Rin that she's loved, after how she treated him the last time they spoke . . . it lessens the intensity, and "like" is just such a weak word in comparison. *sighs*
I'm in the middle of moving, so all of my manga is packed up. But I think I can keep things straight without checking the page numbers against the artwork . . .
p. 52, panel 2: TP: "...not being taken seriously."
JP: "naigashiro ni saretara"
"if we're treated with contempt" or "if we're neglected"
Just in general, the weakening of such important things is upsetting. And in this case . . . the TP translation doesn't reflect at all on what was happening. >.< "Not being taken seriously" is Haru's own issue, but he obviously wasn't thinking about himself at that moment.
p. 62, panel 3: TP: "Why can't we be more normal?"
JP: "Doushite motto futsuu de irarenai n' darou"
"Why can't I be more normal?" The JP sentence has no explicit subject, but in context the subject is clearly "I".
That's interesting--*goes and looks*--Shadow also went with "we" there. (She has "Why can't we live more normally?")
p. 62, panel 3: TP: "Holding hands...having his body on mine...I started to want him. I started to get scared."
JP: "Te o tsunaide mo...karada o kasanete mo...hoshiku naru[.] Kowaku naru" [ . . . ]
So right now my best shot at a translation is "Even holding hands, even piling our bodies together, I begin to desire Haru again. I become afraid again."
. . . I'm starting to conclude that there's no way to make a direct translation of this passage read smoothly, esp. with "piling", which I don't think works in English even if it's the best literal word . . . *ponders* The tense changes depending on which translation I'm reading, which doesn't help. TP's is all past tense, while you and Shadow both went with present. How fluid is that in the original? I know Japanese tenses work differently than English ones . . . Anyway, I think I'd wind up lengthening it a bit, to try to catch some of the subtext (which is probably the line of thinking which leads to some of the things I complain about in the release in general--not a comfortable feeling). The things I read into this passage which are missing in TP's translation are that her desire for him (emotional and sexual) is too strong to be satisfied (tying in with her belief that her love is twisted and capable of destroying him).
Given all that, I might opt for something like, "Even holding hands, even with his body on mine, I just kept wanting him. And I kept being afraid." (That's fairly off the top of my head, though.) It's not a literal translation, but I think I'd want an adaptation that kept that sense of momentum and lack of control and building fear that underscores the entire scene, culminating in the confrontation with Akito. One of the things I love about this chapter is that it's chronologically choppy, but has an emotional undercurrent that's strong enough to keep an unbroken flow of feeling.
Ok, that got long. ^^ But it's one of my favorite scenes in the whole series.
p. 101, panel 5: TP: "will you always go crying to her?"
JP: "itsumademo amaeta mama de iru no ka"
"whether one continues to take advantage of another's kindness indefinitely" I know this is awkward, but in the JP the subject is ambiguous, and I think it's important to preserve this.
*nods* I agree. Rin's ability to show weakness in front of Tohru is a huge turning point for her, but fixating on it being *Tohru* loses some of the connecting threads--the way Rin compares Tohru and Haru in her head, which comes back at the end of the volume, is important for understanding how she thinks. IMO. ^^
And I think that's all I have to say at the moment. Thanks so much for this! (Is it too soon to start fidgeting for vol. 18 to come out in English? I fear so.)
# posted by 
: 4:35 PM
: 4:35 PM
Thanks for your thoughtful comments!
That's interesting--*goes and looks*--Shadow also went with "we" there. (She has "Why can't we live more normally?")
Hmm. Immediately previously, Rin is talking about herself, and she goes on to talk about her excessive desire, so for me it was natural to take the subject as "I". But it's interesting that both TP and Shadow independently chose "we".
esp. with "piling", which I don't think works in English even if it's the best literal word
Yeah, you're probably right about that. And yes, this is a difficult passage both to understand and to translate (though if I understood it better I'd probably be able to translate it better!).
The tense changes depending on which translation I'm reading, which doesn't help. TP's is all past tense, while you and Shadow both went with present. How fluid is that in the original?
In the Japanese, it's clearly present tense. And I don't see any reason in the Japanese to switch from present tense (in the immediately preceding text) to past, as TP does.
Rin's ability to show weakness in front of Tohru is a huge turning point for her, but fixating on it being *Tohru* loses some of the connecting threads--the way Rin compares Tohru and Haru in her head, which comes back at the end of the volume, is important for understanding how she thinks.
Actually I was thinking of the way Yuki applies Shigeru's comment to himself, both here and later in the volume.
That's interesting--*goes and looks*--Shadow also went with "we" there. (She has "Why can't we live more normally?")
Hmm. Immediately previously, Rin is talking about herself, and she goes on to talk about her excessive desire, so for me it was natural to take the subject as "I". But it's interesting that both TP and Shadow independently chose "we".
esp. with "piling", which I don't think works in English even if it's the best literal word
Yeah, you're probably right about that. And yes, this is a difficult passage both to understand and to translate (though if I understood it better I'd probably be able to translate it better!).
The tense changes depending on which translation I'm reading, which doesn't help. TP's is all past tense, while you and Shadow both went with present. How fluid is that in the original?
In the Japanese, it's clearly present tense. And I don't see any reason in the Japanese to switch from present tense (in the immediately preceding text) to past, as TP does.
Rin's ability to show weakness in front of Tohru is a huge turning point for her, but fixating on it being *Tohru* loses some of the connecting threads--the way Rin compares Tohru and Haru in her head, which comes back at the end of the volume, is important for understanding how she thinks.
Actually I was thinking of the way Yuki applies Shigeru's comment to himself, both here and later in the volume.
I don't usually try to make intelligent comments this early in the morning, but the computer's likely going into a box as soon as I get home from work. And so.
In the Japanese, it's clearly present tense. And I don't see any reason in the Japanese to switch from present tense (in the immediately preceding text) to past, as TP does.
. . . wrangling that into present tense sounds like a headache waiting to happen. I think that's one of the contributing factors in the awkward feel of what both you and Shadow wrote (in her case, by rendering it as "I [come to] want"), unless I'm missing something--Rin's remembering something, and conveying that while writing in present tense (even though her feelings haven't changed much) sounds very tricky. Right off, I can't think of a way to do it without breaking the rhythm of the dialogue and altering the verbs somewhat. Would something like--and here I'm not trying to keep it in a format that would still match the speech bubbles or anything--"Even holding hands, or having his body on mine, isn't enough to satisfy the desire . . . or to stop the fear" catch the meaning? Rendering it more abstractly seems like it might keep the tense but make it a more timeless thing.
I'd poke at it more, but I need to get to work. >.<
Actually I was thinking of the way Yuki applies Shigeru's comment to himself, both here and later in the volume.
^^ That too.
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In the Japanese, it's clearly present tense. And I don't see any reason in the Japanese to switch from present tense (in the immediately preceding text) to past, as TP does.
. . . wrangling that into present tense sounds like a headache waiting to happen. I think that's one of the contributing factors in the awkward feel of what both you and Shadow wrote (in her case, by rendering it as "I [come to] want"), unless I'm missing something--Rin's remembering something, and conveying that while writing in present tense (even though her feelings haven't changed much) sounds very tricky. Right off, I can't think of a way to do it without breaking the rhythm of the dialogue and altering the verbs somewhat. Would something like--and here I'm not trying to keep it in a format that would still match the speech bubbles or anything--"Even holding hands, or having his body on mine, isn't enough to satisfy the desire . . . or to stop the fear" catch the meaning? Rendering it more abstractly seems like it might keep the tense but make it a more timeless thing.
I'd poke at it more, but I need to get to work. >.<
Actually I was thinking of the way Yuki applies Shigeru's comment to himself, both here and later in the volume.
^^ That too.
# posted by : 4:33 AM
: 4:33 AM